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( Waging Nonviolence ) – Amira Musallam is a peace activist from Beit Jalla, Palestine. She joins Nonviolence Radio to share her experiences living in the West Bank. Her family is currently facing eviction from their land by nearby Israeli settlers who are backed by the Israeli military. She is part of a exploratory team for unarmed civilian protection, or UCP, in the West Bank and Gaza. She was introduced to the power of UCP when she was 12 years old after her house was bombed by Israel (with American manufactured bombs) and a group of UCP women came to live with her family to prevent further violence and destruction. Since then, she has been actively engaged in nonviolence and UCP.

To hear Amira’s story is to hear the story of so many Palestinians who are struggling for equality and peace through nonviolence in the most heartbreaking and horrific of circumstances. Her story is an urgent call-to-action for all of us to be courageous and work in solidarity with activists on the front lines of the world’s more critical struggles for justice.

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Stephanie: So, welcome everybody, to another episode of Nonviolence Radio. I’m your host, Stephanie Van Hook, and I’m here with my co-host and news anchor of the Nonviolence Report, Michael Nagler.

We are lucky to have a very special guest today, Amira Musallam. She is joining us all the way from Beit Jala in Palestine. And what’s important about this interview is that Amira is working at the front lines of nonviolence in a very violent situation, a very violent conflict.

And we think that it’s important for you, our listeners, to be able to make contact with people from around the globe who would help to tell a different story about what nonviolence is, how it works, and why nonviolence is so important in our world today, and also what’s going on in the conflict.

So, first of all, let’s bring Amira on to the show. Welcome, Amira.

Amira: Hello. Good morning.

Stephanie: Yeah, and good evening to your time. It’s 9:00.

Amira: It’s evening, here it’s good evening. But for you, good morning. Yeah.

Stephanie: Yeah. Well, thank you. It’s wonderful to have your voice here with us. As I was saying, having you as on the front lines in the conflict in Israel-Palestine, you’re going to be able to help our listeners better understand what’s going on and what you’re experiencing. So, thank you so much for joining us.

Amira: You’re welcome. Sure.

Stephanie: How did you get started as a peace activist?

Amira: Well, it started when I was 12-years-old. I live in Beit Jala. I’m American-Palestinian, by the way. I have a U.S. citizenship. I got it from my father, who lived in the States for many years. I visited the States once only, but I never lived there.

When I was 12-years-old, my house in Beit Jala was partially bombed due to the conflict. It was bombed by the Israeli tanks and Apache. And we were in the house – me and my family. And we were able to escape under the fire to our neighbor’s house, which was a more safe to hide in.

That day really affected me so much because before 2000, we used to go uphill near my house to Gilo, which is an Israeli settlement. There was no borders, no apartheid wall, nothing. And we used to play there with kids – with Israeli and Jewish kids. And it was fun, you know.

But in 2000, when the Second Intifada happened, everything changed. Everything changed. Those friends who I had in Gilo, suddenly changed into my enemies, you know? Because of our neighborhood, our town, little town of Beit Jala was bombed, and by the tanks from Gilo.

As a little girl, to see that suddenly, you know, my friends became my enemies. I was so afraid. I was terrified. We were in the house when our house was bombed. I was almost killed. My mom was shouting to – like, for somebody to hear us, to stop because we wanted to escape.

The people couldn’t come to our house to rescue us because it’s a war zone. So, like, the streets are not accessible by cars. Nothing. And so, after that day – after that night, actually, we had to leave the house for a few months until the house was fixed. And then we had a group of women coming to make a human shield or, let’s say, unarmed civilian protection.

And so, they came from England and from other countries. Their name is Woman in Black. And so, they visited us, and they stayed with us at home so they could protect us from any bombing coming to our house.

And one day we were just sitting with one of them, and she told us that a friend of hers would come to visit us. And, of course, she is welcome.

And that woman entered our house. And the moment she saw us, she started crying, and you know, and hugging us and telling us how sorry she is for what her people are doing to us. And it turned out that that woman was a Jewish-American, Israeli woman who came to protect us.

So, as a little girl, you know, I saw there is hope. There is hope that those enemies are not all of them enemies. That there are good people in this world, that those people also have good people in there.

So, since then, all the idea of hating the other just became, “No, I want to talk with the other. I want to tell them my story. I want to tell them how all my childhood was playing with them,” you know? I’m not their enemy. They shouldn’t be afraid for me. That there is another way. Armed force and bombs and attacks, you know, violent attacks from all sides is wrong. And the other way is peace, to talk, to have dialog, to listen to each other.

And that’s when I started attending all kinds of conferences and meetings with the Israelis. And since then, I became a peace activist. I worked in many different organizations when I grew up. And I became – one of my jobs was a regional project manager for a region and project with Jordan, Israel, and Palestine about water management and conflict about water in the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

Stephanie: Thank you so much for sharing your story. There’s a lot in there that I’d like to unpack for our listeners. But first of all, Michael and I both want to just share our grief with you for what you’ve endured since you were 12-years-old. This is very traumatic.

And to imagine not only having your house bombed but losing your friends and your sense of security and not knowing, not knowing what your life is anymore, where you have to leave your house. I mean, that is – it’s hard. I just want to put that in the front for a second and an honor that you’ve been through a lot.

Amira: Yeah.

Michael: Not only that, Amira, but so many people who are subject to that kind of mistreatment, and that kind of shocking reversal where friends become enemies, they themselves become bitter. And it’s a rare person who can stand above that bitterness and that disappointment and recognize the common humanity.

So, again, as Stephanie was saying, we really want to honor you for that. And we look to that kind of human response that you exemplify as our hope for the future.

Amira: Thank you. Yes.

Stephanie: You mentioned the Second Intifada. Can you explain a little of the background of the intifadas so that that’s clear on how that fits into the story?

Amira: Yes. The Second Intifada started in 2000 when Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Prime Minister, invaded the al-Aqsa Mosque with weapons, and with settlers, and so on. And people saw it as an act of humiliation. And it wasn’t so good. And that’s how that the Second Intifada started. Where people went into the streets, and they started throwing rocks at the Israeli Army.

But also, it took a really wrong and bad violent turn, which some arms from the Palestinians were used from – let’s say, Palestinian, men, fighters, freedom fighters. And normally, our fight for liberation was using nonviolent resistance and popular resistance. But in 2000, unfortunately, it took that turn and it was so bad.

We didn’t like it. Nobody liked it. People here in Palestine, they don’t want that. We want just to live in just peace and be liberated and that’s it. So, that’s the Second Intifada. It was so, so harsh. It was so difficult. And people – just like we were under Israeli – they confiscated, like the invaded cities, villages.

So many people were killed in Palestine. We had also curfews. We couldn’t leave home for many days and many hours. Yeah, the Second Intifada was terrible, I think, I believe.

Michael: You know, Gandhi at one point, Amira, said that he had three enemies. The British, which is the least of his problems, his fellow Indians, who would drop their nonviolence sometimes. And then, of course, his worst problem was Mahatma Gandhi. So, we can leave that part aside, but I am interested to hear from you about the internal struggle within the Palestinian community, about whether violence and nonviolence should be used. Could you say a little more about that?

Amira: Of course, of course I can. I am a Palestinian. I was born in Palestine. I lived with people. I know people all over, like in villages and cities in Palestine because I had to, you know, to move around.

Honestly, Palestinian people, they don’t want violence. Palestinian people, as I mentioned before, just want to live in peace.

They just want to live, you know? That’s it. As simple as that. And if you go to the streets, and you ask the most of the people, the majority will tell you, “We don’t want violence. We don’t want anybody to be killed.” Because what I believe, and what I see, that we can’t live without Israelis. And the Israelis, they can’t live without us.

Why? Because we work in Israel, for example. We build their buildings. And the economy in Israel depends on us, and we depend on them. I want to go to Israel and be allowed to go to Israel and not be afraid anymore. I want to be allowed without getting a permit, asking a permit from the military, to get me a permit to go to Jerusalem, you know? So, most of the people think like me.

Now, there is a minority, or there are people who would act violently for many reasons. One of them, some people are brainwashed. Brainwashed from fanatics, from radical – radicalism, you know? This is the most minority of people. Like, you don’t see a lot of people from this kind of people. The second type of people are those who seek revenge. So, a lot of people lost their families. They lost their kids, lost their father, mother, sister.

So, imagine, like, if you lose, someone from your family because someone killed him, not because he died, just like that, naturally. A lot of people would seek revenge. Each one of us would respond to death and killing in a different way.

If something happens to me, maybe I will respond in a – I will forgive because I’m a Christian. So, I would follow the path of Jesus, and I will forgive my enemy, you know, and the one who caused me pain.

But others, maybe they would like revenge. That’s how they will deal with their pain. So, there are lots of people like this. But of course, also, again, not the majority. And the majority, I will tell you, they don’t want revenge. They don’t want to kill. They don’t want violence. They just want to live in peace.

Stephanie: Thank you so much. For those of you who are just tuning in, you’re here at Nonviolence Radio, and we’re speaking with Amira Musallam, and she’s calling from Beit Jala in Palestine.

Amira, can you tell us about where Beit Jala is exactly? And what are the settlements that you were describing?

Amira: So, Beit Jala is part of Bethlehem Governorate. Bethlehem, where Jesus was born. And it’s a neighboring city. So, like, if you walk from Beit Jala to Bethlehem, it’s not like – it’s just crossing the street, you know? That’s how it looks like. I was born in Bethlehem, but I lived, in Beit Jala all my life. So, I’m a Bethlehemite.

Now, what’s happening with us, that I was married nine years ago to someone from Beit Jala whose family has a land in a place called Al-Makhrour. It’s the only green area left for us in Bethlehem Governorate. Why? Because since 2000, the apartheid wall just, you know, took over most of the lands of Bethlehem Governorate.

And we are in a big open-air prison. You know, we are surrounded with the apartheid wall, with the military bases, with checkpoints. And we can only move in and out from Bethlehem as a Palestinian to go to another city in the West Bank through a bypass road that was also built only for Palestinians to take it. So, everybody goes through the same street.

So, Al-Makhrour is the only green area left for us, and we have access to it. And this area is considered Area C. So, for those who don’t know, what does it mean, Area C – in Oslo – in the Oslo agreement between the Israelis and Palestinians in the ‘90s, they divided the West Bank into three zones. Area A, Area B, Area C.

So, Area A is under the civil and military control of the Palestinians. Area B is under the civil administration of Palestinians, but the military control of Israelis. Area C is under the civil and military control of Israel. Now, if we want to do anything in Area C like, you know, build an open road, do anything in construction, and so on, we need to go back to the civil administration, the Israeli civil administration.

So, this area, Area C, is the only green area. If you see it – oh, I wish, you know, there is a camera now. I can show you. It’s really lovely. It’s a lovely area with lots of olive trees, lots of fruit trees. Lots of grape, and so on.

And so, my in-laws, they have land there. They inherited it from the grandfather. And since 2011, they started their own business. It was a restaurant in the field there. It was very nice. Like, people came to this restaurant from all over the West Bank. And even Israelis would come to eat there, you know? Palestinian food and Arabic food, hummus, and so on. It’s really – it was very nice. Yeah.

And then, from 2011 until 2019 this restaurant was demolished by the Israeli military five times. For why? Because they claim that it doesn’t have a license. But anyway, if you go to the Israeli civil administration, and you applied for a license, they wouldn’t give you anyway. So, we would like build without license. Like, let’s say illegally, but it’s not really illegally because, you know, we didn’t like, build the big building or so on.

It was just very simple restaurant outdoors. Just we built the kitchen, you know. That’s the only thing that we built. And the restaurant was demolished five times from 2011 until 2019.

Also, we built a house. They told us that, “No problem, we’ll not demolish it.” And they didn’t give us the demolishing order and that. And we started paying even taxes for, you know, the Israeli government.

But unfortunately, in 2019, they came with big bulldozers and big trucks. And they destroyed – they demolished the restaurant and the house without a demolition order for the house. They just did it.

So, we went to court in 2019, to at least, prove ownership of the land and prove that, you know, my in-laws have Israeli citizenship. They are Arab-Israelis. So, we went to court to prove ownership and to start applying for a license for the house again and for the restaurant again, to rebuild them.

But we were surprised that the JFN claimed ownership also. So, we were in court against them. In 2023, just last year, we proved that the JFN doesn’t have any proof that they own the land. They didn’t prove. They didn’t bring any paper. Even the paper – the deed that they brought from the Jordanian time was fake, and we were able to prove that it was fake.

So, the Israeli court said the JFN doesn’t have any, like, right in the land while a Kisiya family, which are my in-laws, also don’t have ownership as ownership. But they can stay in the land until the original owner, who left Palestine a really long time ago in the ‘60s, can come back. Either him or one of his inheritants to claim the ownership of the land.

So, we stayed in our land. We didn’t rebuild again because we are waiting until we do it, you know, in the right way, in the legal way, getting a license, and so on. And we were there until the 31st of July.

The 31st of July we were in the land. My son, who is 9-years-old, was with his dad on the land and suddenly settlers holding weapons, came into the land, broke the big gate, started aiming weapons at my son and at my ex-husband, threatening them to leave the land. And [Jihan], my ex-husband, he was, like, telling them, like, “Listen, I’m here peacefully. I don’t have weapons. Let’s talk. Let’s talk.” He was like, raising his hands and telling them, “I’m not going to do anything. Just let’s talk. What are you doing here?”

They came without the military, without the police, without anybody. Just settlers. You know, settlers who live nearby in a settlement called Gush Etzion. And after, like, 15 to 20 minutes, police came. The army came. And they stayed there protecting the settlers, allowing them to take out all our stuff, like tables, chairs, even the kitchen. You know, anything that belongs to us, they put it out in the street with the protection of the military, of course. And they took away [Jihan] to the police station, and they gave him a restraining order for like two weeks from the land. And that’s when my in-laws called me – because it was very dangerous. My son was there with those crazy people, you know, with weapons, and so on.

And the moment I arrived to the land, my son was crying because they broke all his toys. They put them out and they broke them all. And I took him away. And I went back because my mother-in-law, sister-in-law, and father-in-law were all alone in the land.

And yeah. And if you want – if you can, like, see the social media, we have lots of videos on about the first day. You will see that those settlers were kids. Kids underage, you know. They were like 9, 10 years, 11 years with two adults with weapons. And the kids were, like, helping in removing us from the land.

So, we stayed there in the land, looking at them, trying to seek help from anybody, you know? So, that’s where I came in because I know lots of activists, lots of peace activists, lots of human rights organizations, I started calling them. And they responded. So, who responded? Most of them were Israelis who responded – Israeli activists, Jewish-Israeli activists, they came to provide UCP, which is, you know, protective presence.

So, they came after like two hours. They responded to our call. They came. They were with us in the land. We tried to talk with the military. More military came. And then the military got a military order, which was, to consider the area a closed military area. Why? Because the settlers couldn’t prove the ownership or any paper.

They didn’t have any paper. And we have our papers. We showed them to the military, but they didn’t care about our papers. So, the military said, “Okay, we will consider this area as a closed military area. Everybody should leave.” And while we were, like, leaving the land, suddenly the head – or the mayor of the Gush Etzion settlement came. Like he’s a powerful man from the settlement nearby.

He came. He was hugging and shaking hands with the military. And suddenly, after five minutes, the military order changed from the closed military area where everybody should leave, to closed military area where Palestinians should leave, and six settlers can stay in the land. You know, this is injustice. This is like really injustice. And we stayed in the land.

We tried to negotiate with the military. Like how come you are in – even the order that they brought and print out, there is nothing from that. It’s only the head of the military who gave that order.

Then they used force to kick us out. They were, you know, holding us, pushing us around until they kicked us out from the land, and they kept the settlers in our land. In our land which we have proof of ownership for – like we have paperwork from the Israeli court, while those settlers don’t have any papers.

Now, what’s their argument that they rented the land? Those settlers rented the land from the [JFN] and the [unintelligible] in 2019. The court which we won was in 2023. So, it doesn’t make sense what you are renting a land in 2019 from someone who didn’t prove ownership in 2023, you know?

But nobody cares. Like they don’t care. The army don’t care. The police don’t care. They don’t want us just to be in the land and that’s it. And since then, on a daily basis, we are in the land, we are in the area, doing nonviolent marches towards the land. Activists from, like, friends from – the Israeli friends, we talk with the police, we talk with the army, we talk with the settlers, telling them, like showing them evidence that this is wrong and what they are doing is illegal and wrong. And they are taking – they are stealing. They are not taking, they are stealing someone else’s property without any right, without any paper. And yeah, and that’s what we were doing. We have now a solidarity camp in the area near the land. Not in the land, of course because we are not allowed to enter.

And now, since then, each time we arrived to the land, they hit us, they beat us. The military, they throw at us stun grenades, teargas bombs. The settlers curse us. Tell us bad words. That’s what’s happening. But we are insisting that every day at 5:00, 5:30 in the afternoon, we are marching to the land with activists from all around. From Israel, from Palestine, foreigners from the States, you know, to show that we are here. We will not leave until we get back our land.

Stephanie: Wow, that is a horrific story of what you’re going through and what you’ve been through. This is quite a lot to take in just to hear and to imagine being in that situation with you. I’m so sorry this is happening.

Michael: One element in what you said, Amira, it does give some grounds for hope, I think. And that is that you are persisting. Because we know that in Central America, there were – this even became a rallying cry, a technical term, if you will, Firmeza Permanente. That in the end, the group that stays in its position and will not be moved will have a very good chance of prevailing. And we certainly hope that this will be your situation in time.

Amira: I hope so. I hope so. You know, this is also happening in all the West Bank, not only in Beit Jala. The problem that those settlers with the leadership of Smotrich, they are acting like lunatics, you know? Like, they don’t have any limits.

They are just stealing, killing, shooting, burning. They also, the settlers in our land, burned the area the other day while we were there to accuse us of burning the area. How come we would burn our lands, you know? We wouldn’t do that. This is our land. We have a connection with our land. This is where our memories happened, you know.

My son was born and lived in that land and in that area. So, we wouldn’t do such things, but they would. They are very aggressive. They are taking all the, you know, the okay from their leaders. And they are doing it because what they are claiming that this is the Judea and Samaria, which is a biblical area and that they should get it back because 3000 years ago, they were there, and their right is to be there again.

But okay, I’m not saying that it’s not their right. Of course, anybody can come back and live with us. With us, not against us, you know? Like with us. That’s what I always say. If those settlers came, and they wanted to live in Judea and Samaria, which is the West Bank now it’s called, we wouldn’t tell them no.

But do it in a decent way, in the right way. If somebody will sell you a land, buy it. Live there between us. We wouldn’t hurt them. But the way they are doing it makes everybody hate them, makes more violence. And more people want to be violent against them because they are being so, so, so violent. And a lot of injustice is happening there, you know?

Stephanie: I have this document here that, according to the UN office of Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, says that between October 7, 2023, and July 29, 2024, 569 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. And Israeli authorities demolished, confiscated, or forced the demolition of 1,311 Palestinian owned structures across the West Bank in a systemic and concerted effort during the chaos of the genocidal actions taking place in Gaza.

That because of the chaos happening in Gaza, there’s this systemic effort while our attention is on Gaza, to heighten, you know, the push in the West Bank.

Amira: Exactly. That’s what exactly happening. Like all the news is concentrating on Gaza and what is happening on Gaza. And the news, it’s not mentioning the West Bank.

Even when we are calling like press, you know, they wouldn’t really care because there is no genocide happening in the West Bank. But this is ethnic cleansing. It’s the same. Okay, they are not killing us all, but they are ethnic cleansing us. You know, like they are moving us from where we live. They want us to leave.

Like look at Bethlehem. We used to be almost 90% of Bethlehem Governorate was Christians. Look at it now. We are less than 10% Christians here. Why? Because Christians are leaving. Not because they want to leave, but because there is no life here anymore. We cannot go to our lands. We are not allowed to do anything in Area C.

Which is, now it’s like Bethlehem Area A, which I explained about, which is under the Palestinian control, is only 27% of the land of Bethlehem. The rest is under Israeli control, which we cannot do anything in it. So, you know? People are concentrating on Gaza and the Israeli military and the government the fascist government is taking advantage that everybody is busy with Gaza. And they are doing lots of horrible things. And ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. Go see the Bedouin community in the West Bank. Like every day, some communities are leaving, are leaving their place due to settler attacks.

This is horrible. This has to stop. And those settlers are not like Israeli or Jewish settlers. They are – they come from all around the world. And even they are kids. Like, the ones who are in our land are kids. What they call them, they call them like, kids at risk in the system.

So, they go to, like, rehabilitation centers and so on in Israel. And they send them to the settlements to do community work. Their community work is that, is stealing people’s land. This is horrible. This is horrific. You know, also to use their kids in such acts.

Stephanie: Yeah. You’re really giving us a picture of what – of the increasing levels of dehumanization and violence, just in terms of the areas, zones A, B and C.

I think it’s important for people who haven’t been there to understand what that’s like. To see above a village, the road going into a village, this is in Area A. And then it has a sign saying, “You could be killed if you go into this area,” meaning that the Palestinians will kill you if you go.

It’s dehumanizing. And I don’t think people understand that those signs exist and kind of making it seem like these are violent areas if you go in because they’re under Palestinian control. And then you go into areas like Area C, and you see Palestinians not being able to build their schools or have their restaurants or living in fear that their homes are being demolished or having a settlement right across the street who’s threatening their children every single day.

But then the other things that you’ve said, it’s just part of almost like the woodwork there now, but, you know, there’s a wall. There’s this gigantic concrete wall cutting through the land that tries to separate Israelis and Palestinians. And then you were saying there’s a road that only Palestinians can drive on. And that you need passes to go into certain areas.

You need to get approval before you can visit a place. Like, imagine what that would be like. In addition to the zoning of villages, I was surprised to hear that in some ways, it’s positive that the courts were working for you because I know that they don’t work for a lot of Palestinians. So, that was, you know, one development that I haven’t heard before.

Amira: The only reason that we could go to the court, because my in-laws have Israeli citizenship.

Stephanie: I see.

Amira: You know? If you’re Palestinian, like me, I am Palestinian, pure Palestinian with a Palestinian passport, goes to the Israeli court, they wouldn’t listen to me. I wouldn’t even like, you know, reach the door of the court, and then they would kick me out, you know. But that’s the good thing, yeah, for my in-laws.

Stephanie: Thank you for clarifying.

Michael: Yeah. Throughout the Middle East, there have been episodes where the judiciary was able to restore justice, protect justice, and diminish violence. And I think isn’t it interesting that now Prime Minister Netanyahu has actually attempted to neutralize the courts so that he can have absolutely unrestricted license to take over land and do these other kinds of violence?

I want to ask you, Amira, have you been working with Holy Land Trust and with Sami Awad?

Amira: Yes. I worked with Sami Awad in 2016 through 2019 in Holy Land Trust, where we worked on the regional project I mentioned before. It was three countries working together on a water matters project. Israelis, Palestinians, and Jordanians living around the Jordan Valley, from the Red to the Dead Sea, the three communities living around that area.

The project was to show how water resources are also confiscated and occupied and abused by the current situation. Like how water is accessible to Israelis but not to Palestinians. How our water, any water resource that we have, is totally controlled by Israel. And Israel would take it and then would sell us our water, you know?

So, for example, like now in Beit Jala, where I live, where we don’t have water. So, we had to buy water and fill in our tanks. Like we don’t have all the time water. We have to buy water and it’s very expensive. Imagine that. While my neighbors in Gilo, and in Jerusalem, just two minutes away from me, have Mekorot water, which is the Israeli water, which doesn’t stop at any point. And it comes from our resources, our water resources, from the Palestinians.

Michael: What you just said reminds me, Amira, of something very critical that happened in the Indian struggle, where the British were taking Indian salt. Processing it and selling it back to them. And, of course, you know, salt is almost as critical as water for human life. So, you have exactly the same dynamic. And it means that there’s a kind of vulnerability in the very injustice of it. Do you see what I mean?

No one could make a case that the British need to take away Indian salt from their own oceans and sell it back to them. So, the very glaring illogic and injustice can be a kind of weakness, if the nonviolence resistance persists.

Amira: Yes. I mean, like, I hope like more people would be willing to do like nonviolence, resistance. But sometimes it’s really difficult, believe me.

You know, I’m a believer of nonviolent resistance, and I believe that it can happen, and it can win. And it can, you know. But sometimes it’s very difficult. Just imagine putting – let’s just say this example, like putting an animal, a dog in a cage, okay? Where you control his food, his water, his life, his behavior.

And you are just putting him there and telling him, “Okay, live your life in that cage.” At some point, this dog, or this animal will become crazy, you know? Will want to attack you and kill you and bite you and so on. And this conflict is the same. If Israel wants to keep us in this open-air cage, prison, for so long, more people would want violence.

Exactly like what happened the 7th of October. I mean, I’m not giving them – I’m not saying it was a good. Of course, no. Nobody wants anybody to be killed. Nobody wants anybody – neither Jewish nor Israeli or a foreigner or whoever, to be killed. Of course, we are against what happened the 7th of October. But go back to the reason. Go back to why. You know, like go back and study the reasons why it happened and why it’s happening, and it’s still happening.

Stephanie: Often people understand that while we can’t support terrorism, we can understand it. We can learn how to understand what were the conditions that led to it. And that is so important.

You’ve been working for such a long time with UCP. Since you said you were 12 years old, in a very horrific situation. And now you’re continuing to work with UCP with an assessment team, looking to bring more people like the Women in Black, that you had worked with earlier. But talk about the assessment team and what they’re looking to do in the West Bank and Gaza.

Amira: Yes. So, we were four people. One from Canada, one from Germany and two from Palestine. Me and Sami from Palestine. We did this assessment in July. We went all over the West Bank. We conducted interviews with different people – activists, people in the political level. People from the villages around who witnessed UCP before and have experience in that.

And so, we asked this question, what if we bring now 100 activists from abroad? Would that help in protecting the civilians in the West Bank, and of course, in Gaza? What would it look like? Is it going to be a new thing, or would we just add our efforts to the people who already are on the ground and doing UCP? Should we do it now, or should we wait until the war is finished?

Also, in the case of Gaza, how would it look like? You know, it’s different than the West Bank because in the West Bank, we live – like Israelis, like settlers live among us, between us. Like you walk in the street and then suddenly you are near a settlement. And then you go to a supermarket nearby, and then you see Israelis there or settlers there.

So, it’s really different than Gaza. Gaza, it’s more like they are surrounded with Israelis, but not inside Gaza. So, what would UCP look like in Gaza? Should we send people there, or should we do it from like doing advocacy, political pressure? You know, what kind of UCP is needed in Gaza? That’s the assessment we did.

And now we are working on our report for the assessment, which will be finished soon, at the end of this month. And then with this report, we will go together to talk with the different representatives. Maybe countries. Maybe UN. Maybe, you know, we will go and discuss it and see, like tell them the results and tell them how important UCP is. And what we should do and how we need their support in that.

Stephanie: I’ve been made aware that there’s a way that people can help support that project through Nonviolence International, which is the fiscal sponsor for that project. NonviolenceInternational.net is where people can go to help support that. Amira, what were some interesting things as you’re writing, working on the report that you might be able to share of what you noticed?

Amira: Yeah. First of all, that UCP is very, very important. That UCP that happened in the past in the West Bank, in different villages, especially in South Hebron Hills. It was very successful, even though still, there are settlers and attacks and so on. But somehow it helped a lot by not expelling the people who live there.

And people are still steadfast. You know, like they are still there and living in their villages. So UCP showed – this report showed us that UCP is very important. It’s very important for the existence of the Palestinian people in their lands, in their homes. Also, it showed what is needed, really. Like for example, there are lots of the organizations doing UCP already on the ground, but it’s not really organized between them.

So, for example, X organization is doing this, Y organization is doing that in the same place, but they don’t have like coordination between them. So, like they need support in organizing things like logistical stuff, financial stuff. Like, people who would go and do the protective presence. We need cars because the areas that we do the protective presence, they are not like, easy access areas. It’s like, you know, mountains, hills, and valleys.

So, we need like 4×4 cars, for example, which most of the organizations don’t have. Or use their own cars, which are like broken from the first five minutes, you know? And this is one example, you know, from the needs. And like, lots of funding. Like people, they need lots of funding.

Like right now, I can tell you the example of the camp that we are doing in Beit Jala. So, for example, we are calling like activists to come and stay with us 24/7. But for example, there is nobody to bring us food because us, as a family, we can’t provide food because we are – we stopped working. We’re not going anymore to work to stay in the solidarity camp and to do the marches every day.

So, we need like a backup, you know, like money, to be able to cook for those people who are coming with us in solidarity. So, for example, this is like a very small example of food, transportation, gas. It’s tough to cook, you know, like these tents. Like we need a bathroom because we are outside.

There’s no infrastructure there. So, we need a remote, or whatever we can call it – bathroom. So, like, these things is very small things that adds up to the money issue. So, it’s important that people abroad, that if they can’t come and help or support, that’s what they can do. Supports us financially.

Stephanie: That’s amazing because you’ve really helped lay out the entire – a broader vision of how people can support. So, even if they were to come over and say they didn’t become an unarmed civilian protection person, they could also come and help drive a car, or they could help get food made or brought, bring food. There’s a number of other things that people can do, if they don’t feel that they’re being called to be a UCP presence, but that they can still help even from whatever other country they’re in, they can give financial support to the project for all of these daily life needs of the teams and of people that are working on nonviolence, which is important.

Amira: Yes. And also, one important thing that I have to add is advocacy. Advocacy is very important. Like people who have been to Palestine and Israel, when they go back to their countries, just don’t stay there and sit and say, “I once visited Palestine and Israel, and I saw the checkpoints,” and so on. No, go and talk about it, you know? Talk with your community, with your – maybe in universities, in schools, and then in your, you know, barbecue nights with your friends. You know, to tell people what’s going on on the other side of the world because it’s all connected.

It’s all connected. If this area stays like this, all the world is going to – going to really a – bad, bad things. So, I think everybody should talk about it, whoever is interested in this case. And I can help, and many people can help. There are plenty of organizations who talk about the conflict, about what’s happening. You can, you know, Google, and then you have so many organizations who can tell you and give you firsthand information about the situation and what’s happening.

Stephanie: Yeah. I was quite surprised, Amira, after October 7th, when papers started reporting on what life is like in the West Bank and what was happening with the settlements. So many people were surprised, and they didn’t know that was happening, that there was this very intense escalation of violence on a daily basis from the Israeli government on Palestinians, especially in the West Bank. People didn’t know that. So, not to take anything for granted that people understand what’s going on there.

Amira: I totally understand. Like when I talk with people who come, like they meet me for the first time, and I tell them I’m a Christian Palestinian, also they are surprised. Even lots of people in the States, they don’t know that we exist here.

Come on, you know? Like really, some people, they asked me, when did you become a Christian? I tell them I was born. I never became a Christian. I am a Christian because I was born. Since my great-great-great-great grandfather, you know? My grandfather was the mayor of Bethlehem. My ancestors are Bethlehemite Christians from Bethlehem where Jesus was born, like Bethlehem is Christian. Come on.

So, this is like, to that extent, people don’t know about us, about Palestine, about the conflict. Israel doesn’t differentiate us from others. Like they treat us as Palestinians. They don’t give us like special treatment because we are Christians. No. For them, we are Palestinians.

They don’t care. You know, like my house was bombed. Our land is being taken. I have to go to Jerusalem, which is just five minutes from Bethlehem. I need a permit from the Israeli government to cross the checkpoint and go to church in Jerusalem, you know? Even if I have an American passport, I still can’t go, you know? I’m not allowed. Like, if you come to, to visit me, then you can go alone to Jerusalem. I can’t go with you. Even if I’m American. So, yeah, it’s really terrible.

Michael: Yeah. We experienced that ourselves. A friend of ours drove us up to Bethlehem, but had to stop and go back while we went in.

I just want to make one final comment, Amira, and that is that this kind of extreme violence that you’ve been describing is often its own undoing. That historically, if you look back at, you know, a couple of centuries, more centuries, what you see is people think that by being extremely violent they’re going to prevail. They’re going to be secure. They’re going to get what they want. But it always backfires. So, it’s very harmful.

There’s no way of getting around the pain and the risk. But in the long run, I want to say that I believe you are in a stronger position, and we wish you every success.

Amira: Thank you. Thank you.

Stephanie: Amira, thank you so much for joining us today on Nonviolence Radio. I have this, letter from Mel Duncan, who’s also working on the outreach in the creation of this project for UCP.

And he suggests that people tell your story who have heard this, contact their representatives and senators in the US. That they call the State Department and talk about your situation. Demand that the US Embassy in Jerusalem intervene, that it has to stop supporting Israeli expansion on the West Bank. Demand an immediate cease fire in Gaza and stop any further arms shipments to Israel. I’m sure you can. People can find out more about this at NonviolenceInternational.net. Amira Mussallam, thank you so much for joining us today.

Amira: Thank you. Thank you very much. Bye.

Stephanie: Bye. For those of you just tuning in, or have been listening, you’re here at Nonviolence Radio, and we’ve been speaking with Amira Mussallam from Beit Jala, Palestine, about nonviolence in Palestine, and Israel-Palestine, and in the West Bank, and her situation on the front lines of that conflict.

If you want to learn more about nonviolence, go to MettaCenter.org. And you can find archives of this show at NonviolenceRadio.org.

We want to thank our mother stations, KPCA and KWMR. To Matt and Robin Watrous who are going to transcribe this show, thank you very much. Sophia Pechaty, Annie Hewitt, Bryan Farrell over at Waging Nonviolence, the show is syndicated there, also across the Pacifica Network.

Thank you to all community radio supporters. A special thank you to Amira Mussallam for her interview. Mel Duncan for putting us in contact. And to you, all of our listeners, until the next time, as we way, please take care of one another.

Via Waging Nonviolence